Thursday, September 9, 2010
Passage from Henry VIII
In the speech from Shakespeare's play Henry VIII, Cardinal Wolsey considers his downfall from his position as advisor to the king. Spokesmen for the king have just left Wolsey alone on stage. Read the speech carefully. Then analyze how Shakespeare uses elements such as allusion, figurative language, and tone to convey Wolsey's complex response to his dismissal from court.
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Monique McClain
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Cardinal Wosley's speech from Henry VIII is mocking not only the facades of those in the royal court, but also himself. Wosley uses shifts in his speech to at first bluntly display his anger and frustration towards high society. Then, he gives third person examples that are poetically structured and describe the false hopes and fall of men. For example, lines 1 and 2 are Wosley's mocking of the people of the court. He says, "So farewell-to the little good you bear me"(line 1). He is really saying that he does not even care about saying good bye because he feels that all of the people in the court have done little, if anything, for him. The shift occurs in line 3 and continues to line 9 (ends at "And then he falls"). This passage is a generalization about the process that all men experience. In a nutshell, man starts with little hopes that grow until he is full of pride and something unexpected occurs so that at the peak at his greatness, he falls.
When Wosley says "as I do" (line 9), this marks the beginning of another shift in which he relates his personal experience of undergoing the same process and his sentiments about it. He says "I have ventur'd" (line 9) "far beyond my depth" (line 12) which means that his pride has put him into a dangerous situation. When his "high-blown pride" (line 12) breaks, it correlates with his recent downfall from his position as advisor. Wosley also describes how he hates "vain pomp and glory" (line 16), the very things that are part the facade of the elite. He actually feels relieved that he no longer has to maintain that facade himself and feels that his "heart [is] new open'd" (line 17) for expressing his true self.
The last shift is in line 17 and starts with " O how wretched". Now that Wosley feels freed from the constraints of high society, he mocks others like his old self who seek to appease the fickle royalty. He even says that an unsatisfied prince causes more fear and pain than women and war (the part about women is a little sexist). Wosley also creates a sense of despair when he compares the appeaser to Satan who, unlike him, will never have any hope after he falls.
I know this comment is kind of long and doesn't answer the prompt, but hopefully it may help someone to understand the speech. What are your connotations of the figurative language and the allusion of Lucifer in this passage and how are they relavant?
Eric Hum
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Ms. McClain brought up some aspects of the poem I never even glimpsed of. Also, I have no idea what the question is asking, so if anyone knows, post. So I will just attempt to add on to her interpretations.
When Wosley says, “to all my greatness” (2), I thought he was being a little prideful, or in other words full of himself. I then saw many images that implied that his pride leads to his downfall. Line 8, “His greatness is a-ripening, nips his roots.” What nips his root? His greatness, so his greatness lead to his downfall. In the next sentence, Wosley talks about bad swimmers with floaties swim in a “sea of glory” (11) but go “far beyond my depth” (12). So bad swimmers who think they are good lead to downfall. Then with Lucifer, Wosley makes an allusion. Lucifer thought he was good and was prideful, implied from list, and staged a coup, he failed and fell down to hell. So pride led Lucifer to his own downfall. So Wosley mentions that he is a prideful person, or he implied it by speaking pompously. With this, Wosley probably admits that his own pride led to his downfall, which is a possible answer to the question.
So there are two main pieces of metaphors, from my count. Wosley compares his situation to a life and structure of a tree. He also compares it to water. I do not have any implications there. But in “Of a rude stream that must for ever hide me” (15), I see a drowning. But if Wosley survives this possible drowning, as our favorite professor said, it’s a baptism, or a renewal or rebirth. Wosley furthers this idea with “I feel my heart new open’d” (17). That could mean several things, but in this situation, it most likely means a rebirth. But that connotation does not seem to fit with the surrounding text.
Finally, line 6 is kind of weird “the third day comes a frost, a killing frost.” (6) If I’m correct, Jesus resurrected on the third day. Hopefully anyone with a better understanding of Christianity can aupport my finding. So if Jesus came back to life on the third day, then why would a cardinal say that the third day comes with a frost, but not just a frost, a killing frost? Is it contradictory? This probably just means that Wosley feels contradicted and has mixed emotions on his downfall. As Ms. McClain says, He’s relieved, but as I see it, he’s admitting his pride and greatness lead to his downfall. But the killing frost could also mean that the Christians or the Christian court or the king has rejected their religion and have become corrupt and evil. Instead of having someone’s third day be a rebirth, they kill the hopes and spark his downfall. If anyone else has any interpretations, and most importantly can answer the question, please post.
Live Huminationed!
Eric Hum
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If I can continue, I just realized that the question is probably asking us what Wolsey meant when he made this speech. I also just realized that I kept misspelling Wolsey’s name. Anyways, by Wolsey’s complex response, my answer to that would be that Wolsey is feeling contradicted with his downfall, as shown right away at the first two lines of the poem. “So farewell- to the little good you bear me./ Farewell? A long farewell to all my greatness!” (1-2) These two lines actually have different tones. In the first line, Wolsey is kind of relieved when he hears of this dismissal. He even admits it himself “weary and old with service” (14). With this admittance and relieved tone, it seems as if Wolsey is glad to be dismissed and is happy to go into retirement. But then Wolsey suddenly mixes things up when he says his second line with a strong and seemingly angry tone. He further explains his frustration when he compares himself to a “good easy man” (7) and that man’s life in lines 3-9, as Ms. McClain mentioned. He feels that he is great and still better than everyone else, and he takes his downfall as an act that is preposterous. Following what Ms. McClain said, Wolsey then shifts to his acceptance tone, admitting that he went “far beyond my depth.” (12) Then with a sudden outburst, he claims that he hates the pomp and glory of his world. Then he says “I feel my heart new open’d” (17) This can go in many ways: He is exposing his true self, he is in a rebirth, he is opening his emotions (as favorite professor said), or it’s a combination of the three. Wolsey then follows this up with a metaphor on the appeasers of princes. Wolsey feeling contradicted to his dismissal from court can be a possible answer to this FRQ.
I’m still waiting on the reaffirmation or disagreement to the Jesus allusion. I also wonder if I’m on the right track or not for the answering of the question, if so please continue on it, if not, please correct me. Also, when I say “favorite professor” I’m referring to the author of the book we all love, How To Read Literature Like a Professor. So following on our favorite professor, does anyone see any patterns in this speech? I’m not sure, so please post your connotations and interpretations.
Live Huminationed!
Monique McClain
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I see that Eric has been reading his book and that he is trying to apply some of its concepts to this speech. I do think that Eric brought up a good point about the "rude stream" (line 15) and how Wolsey's possible drowning could lead to a rebirth. However, I do think the interpretation about Jesus and Christianity is interesting. I can see where Eric sees the contradiction of the "killing frost" (line 6) and the resurrection of Jesus, but I do think his interpretation is a little off when he talks about the Christin court rejecting religion, although his comment on the court and the king be represented by the "killing frost" (line 6) is sound.
If anyone else has ideas on this interpretation or on other elements of this speech, please post them!
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ReplyDeleteKristina Wade
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Wow I forgot to put my name and period twice! Anyways...
I would like to respond to Monique’s question on how the figurative language and the allusion of Lucifer’s relevance in this passage. After some research online I found that Lucifer was an angel created with the ability to have freedom of choice, but he became rebellious and disobedient towards God. He was then cast of heaven because of his sins and banished to hell. So when “And when he falls, he falls like Lucifer, Never to hope again” (22-23) the simile can be interpreted as Wolsey believes that he has no reason to hope now that he has fallen, all he can look forward to is being miserable for the rest of his life.
So in response to his dismissal from the court Wolsey has become very hopeless. Although in the start of his speech the tone is resentful and angry which is reflected in “to the little good you bear me” (1), like little good has come from all his work, but yet his work was great, as he says farewell to his work in line 2. Although I do not understand what the third line of this passage means, Wolsey continues to paint a picture of a flower blooming but very quickly comes “a killing frost”. This symbolizes how susceptible Wolsey is after his dismissal as he refers to him self as “weary”, “wretched”, and as a “poor man”. He also refers to the world as being “vain” and he expresses his anger towards the “pomp and glory” of the world. He feels bad for those that lead there lives dependent on the favors of the king, but soon realizes that without that dependence on the king he is left to “never to hope again”(23).
I do understand Eric’s interpretation of Christianity and Jesus and its relation to the passage but I do not think that this is what it is really about. I believe that this passage is meant to reflect on the many emotions that a person might feel or goes through after being disappointed even after much great work and dedication. After realizing that something has not gone right there are many different perspectives that can be taken on what has happened, a person might be relieved, resentful, hopeless, angered, or happy, it all just depends.
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ReplyDeleteFlorencia Etcheverry
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To answer Kristina Wade’s previous question, I believe that the third line is meant to explain the way people come to power and how they lose it quickly. It says, “This is the state of man: today he puts forth/The tender leaves of hopes, tomorrow blossoms,/ and bears his blushing honors thick upon him;/the third day comes a frost, a killing frost.” Wolsey describes his situation as a plant that only survives for three days (metaphor). On the first day, Wolsey just had high hopes. He was merely a leaf on a tree. On the second day, he “blossomed” and came to power as the advisor to the king. Then, on the third day, his power and greatness was gone. By describing his dismissal in court as a plant that only lasted for three days, I believe that Wolsey was trying to say that his coming to power was short and did not last long. This was also reiterated in the eight line when Wolsey says, “his greatness is a-ripening.” Using the word “ripening” shows that Wolsey had power but it was limited and only temporary.
While reading the speech, line 16 and 17 seemed very important. Shakespeare writes, “Vain pomp and glory of this world, I hate ye! /I feel my hear new open’d.” Both of these lines seem to contradict themselves which makes me think that Wolsey had mixed feelings toward his dismissal from court. In line 16, Wolsey makes it seem as though he is angered by his dismissal and that he abhors all people that have high positions. In line 17 though, Wolsey begins to say that his dismissal caused him to open his heart. I believe this means that Wolsey’s downfall caused him to go through some type of realization. He began to see advisors as sad and hopeless people that will one day, lose their power.
I had trouble understanding line 19. I looked up the word “betwixt” and the dictionary said it meant “among,” but it still did not help me understand what the line meant. If anyone can help, please post.
Monique McClain
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When I looked up betwixt on dictionary.com, one of the definitions was between. So one way to paraphrase lines 19 and 20 would be this: There is, between the approval we seek to get,/ the sweet appearance of princes and their fall. Hopefully this helps us to understand that section of the speech.
In the prompt, it also asks how Shakespeare uses figurative language and tone to convey Wolsey's reponse. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Jeremy Miclat
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In response to Florencia's post saying "I believe this means that Wolsey’s downfall caused him to go through some type of realization," I'd agree to this and suggest that he realized that his downfall was due to his pride, as seen in lines 12- 13: "My high-blown pride/ At length broke under me, and now has left me." It is also interesting to note that the "killing frost" in line 6 is an external force that caused downfall, however the later realization shows a shift from blaming someone else to taking the blame.
I also noticed that this poem's theme has a strong tie to Proverbs 16:18; "Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." I'm not exactly sure how I can tie that into his response, but it seems fitting.
As to Monique's reference back to the prompt, there's an interesting simile in lines 10- 12 comparing himself to little boys floating around on floaties, and how the "sea of glory" is "far beyond my depth." Which was noted earlier by Eric. Piecing them together is interesting in that you can't learn how to handle things until you remove the supporters. So even though the speaker knows he cannot handle the deep waters, he is unwilling to learn how. It is a far fetched thought, but I would like to see how this develops.
Lines 19- 21 still confuse me because I am not entirely sure about what "pangs and fears" refers to, or what "smile we would aspire to" means. If you have any further clarification, please do post a response.
Andrew Garcia
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Finally... took me 30 minutes to make a blogger account with an "original name". So back to the poem. The main change I saw during the poem was how he went from pride and boasting to that of humility and shame. "...A farewell to all my greatness!" (line 2)From being the kings right hand man, to nothing, further entails such change in the speakers life. "Is the poor man that hangs on princes' favors" (line 18), rather suits this well.
Some background information to Henry VIII, that would have been used by Shakespeare to create this play. Henry VIII of England was most famous for 2 things in his lifetime; having 6 wives, and reforming England's religion from the Roman Catholic Church. Both of these are shown inside the poem, directly and indirectly. A king who has had 6 wives is already seen as a petty and indecisive man, so it begs to show that he may throw a few advisors from his court as well. Cardinal Wosley, the advisor and speaker inside the poem, shows this in his Idea of princes. "That sweet aspect of princes, and their ruin." (Line 20) This ruin or indecisiveness of the prince rather plagues Wosley's life, because it dictates his very lively-hood. Out of the play itself it even says: "To dance attendance on their lordships’ pleasures." (Act V, Scene II, which better shows that the kings "pleasures" with so many wives seeps into other aspects of his decision making. As for his reformation from the church, Henry VIII originally did it for selfish reasons. By refusing to allow him to divorce Catherine of Aragon (another character within the play). This is shown with the allusion: “And when he falls, he falls like Lucifer, Never to hope again” (Line 22-23)This shows the importance the Roman Church, or Anglican Church, is to Wolsey.
Thats all I can write for now, but I will be writing further after class today. "Farewell! God knows when we shall meet again." ~William Shakespeare
Andrea Umali
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Adding on to Eric's and Monique's clever analyzation of the drowning and rebirth in line 15, could that same "rude stream" be an allusion to the River Styx? After all, the river is the division between the land of the living and the underworld, which Wolsey could have been drowning in due to his exceedance of pride. If my interpretation is correct, he would have been on the verge to hell like Lucifer who was later alluded to. However, Wolsey does not completely fall like Lucifer because he does survive and experience a renewal, as seen when the speaker feels his "heart new open'd." This is my opinion, so please respond with any further thoughts on the matter, and if you have any idea as to why Wolsey writes "to-day" and "to-morrow" the way he does.
Diego Mendez
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To add on to the previous posts, I also believe line 6 is somewhat contradictory,if it is alluding to resurrection of Christ.Also, if the theme is that hope grows in men until he is power and an unprecedented event occurs that causes his power to collapse, the would this poem be similar to one of Shakespeare's other work, say Julius Caesar ?
Hannah Pollock
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I agree with Eric Hum’s ideas that pride led to his eventual downfall, however I do believe Wolsey feels like a victim. The speaker starts off by reflecting upon himself in the first few stanzas, using the metaphor of a growing flower to show a drastic contrast between his successes to his downfall. At first he says “the tender leaves of hopes, to-morrow blossoms” to show how he began with very little, but was able to “bear his blushing honors think upon him” when he became very close to the king and was able to reap the benefits. I agree here with Florencia when she said that since the flower is fully ripe, it is only temporary and has reached its full potential, only to wilt now. However in the next stanza when it talks of “a killing frost” this is the dramatic turning point when he loses everything he has worked for. The killing frost though suggests that maybe he believes that his downfall wasn’t his own doing, like he is the victim in this, being that frost is a force of nature or external element. Anyone else see this idea?
Also I agree with Eric’s idea of the “little wanton boys that swim on bladders”, with the thought that he is comparing himself to be a floater or someone who just carelessly goes though life. Since he was floating in a “sea of glory” this had an effect on the way he viewed the world, perhaps making him a very proud, vain person. Therefore when he says,“at length broke under me”, it shows how him being so full of himself or assured of his status caused his initial downfall.
My only question is when the speaker says, “Of a rude stream that must for ever hide me”, I can also see the idea of him indicating that it was an external force that caused his downfall and that is what he is blaming it on. However there were many opinions on that the “rude stream” was a way of summarizing his vain ways which is what symbolically drown him. I’d really like to hear other ideas. Any suggestions?
And to answer Andrea Umali's question about why Shakespeare used the words "to-day" and "to-morrow" spelt in such a way, I'm pretty sure it just had to deal with the time period it was written in. Very old English styled.
Sabrina Evans
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I must say that I don't agree with Eric in that the first two lines show different tones. I think that both lines are bitter. This is shown when he says, "So farewell-to the little good you bear me. Farewell? a long farewell to all my greatness!" (Lines 1-2). Wolsey's bitter tone in the first line shows how hurt he is as he's lashing out at the king, (as if he could hear him), basically saying that the king did nothing for him anyway.I think he's also immature because his tone kind of reminds me of someone who will only talk bad about someone when they're not there to hear it. The second line also shows his bitterness as Wolsey pretty much is "shaking his fist" at the king, as if saying 'you're going to miss me when I'm gone.' I don't know about you guys, but I laughed at that mental image...
In response to Hannah's question, I can understand the thinking of those who say that when the speaker says, "Of a rude stream that must for ever hide me", it was an allusion to the river Styx. However, I'm not sure if I'm right, but with the metaphors of flowers and references streams and vanity, I saw a possible allusion to Narcissus. It might explain lines 12-15, "My high-blown pride/ At length broke under me, and now has left me,/Weary and old with service, to the mercy/Of a rude stream that must forever hide me." I thought that maybe he personified the stream to be rude, because it alludes to Narcissus turning into a flower due to his staring at his reflection in the water.
I also agree with the previous interpretations of Lucifer in that Wolsey is comparing the king to Lucifer, saying that he will fall just as Lucifer will. I felt that Wolsey was kind of taking a shot at the sometimes 'perfect image' that the common people see of their leaders and he used the allusion to show that. Though Lucifer was an angel, he was corrupted by evil and fell, just as Wolsey is alluding that the king will.
Briana Amos
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My interpretation of Wolsey's character was he felt complete disbelief at the situation he finds himself in. Looking up Wolsey historically he had climbed the political later not only with the trust of King Henry Viii but also within the church of England. As many know, King Henry and the church had their fair amount of disagreements. Because the Kings chief adviser (Wolsey) couldn't get an annulment from the church, it lead to his ultimate downfall. If I was Wolsey, I could understand his frustration toward the king. He had worked his whole life toward attaining "greatness," (line 1)just to have it taken from him. In line 3 he talks about how he started off. "The tender leaves of hopes, To-morrow blossoms" (line4) is him becoming powerful and "on top of the world" so to speak. Yet it shifts in line 6 when he speaks of a killing frost, signifying his dying career. I completely agree with majority of the analysis posted. I just thought it was interesting how knowing some history behind Shakespeare's play changed my perspective completely on the meaning of the poem.
Does my connection make sense or am I completely off base?
oops I meant ladder* (line2)
ReplyDeleteRyan Cuizon
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It seems that most people here have came to the consensus that Wolsey's pride ultimately led him to his downfall. And I completely agree with that, I found this especially evident in line 10, which explains the bladders that kept him afloat in his sea of glory. These bladders being his pride, broke under him essentially drowning him in his sea of glory. I also agree with Florencia's interpretation of how "Wolsey’s downfall caused him to go through some type of realization." The shifts of tone in the speech make it a tempting possibility. His tone begins as furious and frustrated after his loss of his position, which is perfectly natural. Then it continues on as he begins to enter a phase of acceptance. He starts to accept the fact that he lost his position due to his high reliance on pride and without them he cannot stay "afloat" in this world. Wolsey, after experiences the life of royalty, finally realizes that it is a corrupt system, as shown in line 18. This may be a stretch but maybe Wolsey is still a little bitter towards the king and is just criticizing royalty in general, because of his own bias. I also like the fact that Eric has connected The third day as the resurrection of Jesus. But the line is completely ironic when it is looked at from this perspective, as he has stated. So why speak of rebirth and talk about a killing frost simultaneously? I believe that it is meant to show that ones downfall will lead him to "rebirth," or in this case revelation. After realizing royalties corruption he sees how the people hang on a very thin thread which royalty controls. Finally he compares royalty with the fall of Lucifer, God's once right hand angel. After Lucifer's fall into damnation he was never to hope again, as said in the last line of the speech. I believe that he says "never to hope again" not for its literal meaning, but to show that once royalties choice is made it can have severe repercussions on the people.
Please correct me if you believe any of this statements otherwise.
Stephanie Villalobos
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For the bladders line I also agree with Ryan that the bladders represent his pride however I viewed it as them braking was because he had too much pride filling them. Like Hannah's idea I believe that he became too comfortable in his job and did not take it as seriously as before and so the bladders broke.Also during that time he is talking about the wanton little boys who where just enjoying themselves and not worrying reinforcing that he was being too comfortable with his role.When I looked up the history online I actually found that he had been unsuccessful and fired in his assignment due to a careless mistake that had been due to disorganization.
With question of his use of "to-day" and "to-morrow" at first I believed to be due to a different meaning that they would have separated but later I decided that they did not, though I am still unsure. My guess now would but just so the difference between the first two days and the third days, or maybe just to stress the changing in time for the cycle. Does anyone else have other ideas of why that may be so?
In line 7 "And, when he thinks, good easy man, full surely" I was also confused on what this line meant. Can anyone explain to me what Wolsey is trying to say here?
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ReplyDeleteDino Digma
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Like almost everyone that has posted on here, I believe that it was Wolsey’s astounding pride and growing ambition that caused his own downfall. I would have to disagree with Ms. Pollack’s claim that the “rude stream” (line 15) symbolizes an external force that brought him down because in the previous lines, Wolsey turns the blame on himself. In lines 9-15 Wolsey claims “I have ventured… far beyond my depth” and “my high-blown pride broke under me”. In these lines Wolsey comes to realize that it was his own actions and pride, and not anything or anybody, that caused his downfall.
Like Mr. Miclat, I am still a bit confused on the meaning(s) of lines 19-21. From the previous lines, it seems that Wolsey is describing the dreadful stresses and the hardships of working in the court by claiming that there were more “pangs and fears than wars or women have”. Although I am confused about the literal, let alone symbolic, meaning of lines 19 and 20. These seem to be very important lines in the speech so any help would be greatly appreciated.
In Mr. Hum’s post, he claims that the three days of the blooming plant, was an allusion to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. During Shakespeare’s time Cardinals, Wolsey’s position, were prominent figures in religious affairs so it would not be unlikely that Wolsey would make a reference to Christ. Like the others who responded to the idea of resurrection, I believe that the allusion is a bit contradictory because in Wolsey’s speech the blooming plant was devastated and died on the third day, while Jesus rose back to life on the third day. Although, this contradiction may be symbolic. By contrasting himself with the Jesus, who is seen as the savior, Wolsey portrays himself as a sort of Anti-Christ or a symbol of evil. I believe that the later allusion and comparison of himself to Lucifer only supports the idea that Wolsey has put himself down or degraded himself.
As Mr. Hum stated, the “rude stream that must for ever hide me” seems to be fatal drowning. I think that Wolsey tried to escape this “drowning” by changing the way he handled his position, or as he puts “feel my heart new open’d”. In my class somebody claimed the stream may have been an allusion to the Styx River which divided the living from Hades. After reading the speech over, I think that this may be a possibility because Wolsey says that the stream will “for ever hide me”. Wolsey’s allusion to Lucifer, who is known to reside in Hades, further supports the idea because he compares his fall to the fall of Lucifer who is now hidden by the Styx River.
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ReplyDeleteCarly Hintz
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Along with many other people, I believe this speech describes how Wolsey's overly pridefulness causes his down fall. The tone of this speech goes from sarcastic and bitter as shown by the quote, "Farewell? a long farewell to all my greatness!", to a realization that he needs to start over and become renewed as shown in the quote " I feel my heart new open'd".
I agree with Eric and Dino that the allusion in line six refers to the resurrection of Jesus which is ironic because the third day for Jesus was him coming back to life while in Wolsey's speech it shows life and death using the word "blossoms" to show plants coming to life and the word "frost" showing how they died due to the cold. In lines 22-23 there is an allusion of fallen angel. Here Wosley compares himself to Lucifier because he was prideful then shot down by Henry VIII like God had done to Lucifier.
I agree with Hannah and Stephanie that " Like little wanton boys that swim on bladders", represents how Wosley began not taking his position seriously so the bladders broke. I believe this is compared to careless boys that swim with floatys and believed they would always have these to protect them.
During the seminar my group tried to understand the meaning of " More pangs and fears than wars of women have", but no one who able to come up with anything. Does anyone have an interpurtation of this quote?
Stephanie Villalobos
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I can see what Jacquelyne is saying for lines 19-21. I also believe that "betwixt" smiles are an evil thing because the smile is not really sincere. I'm seeing more and more that he relates to himself very badly throughout the poem.
Continuing to line 20 I believe "the sweet aspects of princes, and their ruin" show that even though the achievements that he has had for Henry VIII was good, that is not what he will be remembered for . What he will be remembered for more is the mistake that led to his ruin and will allow him to room to move back to the top of society.
Victor Chavez
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All of my colleagues have come to really interesting ideas about the poem. I agree with Ryan's and Stephanie's interpretation of the "bladders" resembling Wolsey's pride. What I found perplexing was why Wolsey chose to compare his pride with a sack of air. Air sacks can be easily punctured or deflated. Does this mean that Wolsey viewed his pride as weak? Furthermore, when Wolsey uses this "bladder" to keep "little Wanton boys" afloat,I saw it as a lifebuoy that Wolsey was hanging on to to keep his career afloat. Perhaps Wolsey is saying that pride is superficial to everyone.
Ms. Amos post brings up an excellent point that historical background really adds to this speech. Wolsey took the time to plant his leaves of hope to start his career. When it blossoms, he is at his height. Wolsey's description of a "Killing frost" urged me to see that Wolsey is describing his downfall as an uncontrollable force. I reached this conclusion because a "killing frost" is part of Weather and weather is uncontrollable. Wolsey says that he could not control his downfall.
Many intriguing ideas have been mentioned and I can not wait to read more.
Jennisha Mamaril
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I think that line 20 when he says, "The sweet aspect of princes, and their ruin" was just Wolsey comparing himself to a prince, and showing how one negative action can be noticed and ruin them. Although I may be wrong, it seems reasonable because he talks about how his pride was the cause of his downfall as he says "My high-blown pride/At length broke under me," (line 12-13).
In the posts above, the comparison to Lucifer was mentioned. I believe that when he compares himself to Lucifer, who was the most beautiful angel in all of heaven and cast down by God for wanting to be God, I believe the parallel in the farewell speech is revealed: Wolsey felt that he WAS England's ruler during the time he sat at Henry VIII's side. The final line "never to hope again" shows the tone of acceptance of his dismissal.
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ReplyDeleteJustin Abadejos
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Along with almost everyone here, I agree with the interpretation of how Wolsey's pride and the concept of being full of himself causes his dramatic downfall. I agree with Mr. Chavez in his interpretation of the bladder as a lifebuoy, in the "sea of glory,"(Line 11)but then as is downfall is imminent and then actually occurs it leads him into the "rude stream" reflecting his narrow opportunities which, stated above by Mr. Digma and Mr. Hum, also represents the Styx river and ultimately reflects on how drastic downfall.
Also I would like to further Ms. Mamaril's tone of acceptance in line 23, and how the shift in attitude of Wolsey toward his downfall changes from arrogant because of him thinking so highly of himself and then realizes his situation at line ten where he uses the "little wanton boys" simile, where his attitude towards his downfall becomes more rational and partially accepting.
Furthermore, the allusion of the falling and resurrection of Jesus Christ, I believe, is completely contradictory to Wolsey's situation because of his characteristics of being self-centered and his believed superiority, and then Shakespeare says the flower/greatness of Wolsey is "a-ripening" which reflects his perspective of how he is on top, as Jennisha stated, England's ruler, and then his downfall is represented by "nips his root," which reflects how King Henry VIII confronts Wolsey and takes him out at the source.
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ReplyDeleteAndrew Garcia
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Im glad the other periods got into this, finally!
In response to Jennisha Mamaril's post, one can say that King Henry has been elevated to that of God. Now, with some Biblical knowledge of Job, one sees from the beginning of the book, Lucifer is underneath God to the point that he has to ask him to persecute Job. This would be relevant in that sense. But she is right in the sense Wolsey thought of himself higher than King Henry VIII but it actually led to his downfall too, because in the play Wolsey was part of a conspiracy against the King.
Hannah Pollock
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To answer Stephanie's question about the line "And, when he thinks, good easy man, full surely", I believe it it showing how sure he was of his status in life and how he believed nothing could bring him down. He used the line "good easy man" to show how much he was floating by in life with such a high opinion for himself. He was "full surely" positive that his success could only become greater as it shows in the next stanza "his greatness is a-ripening". However he soon learns that this would be the eventual downfall for him and it would "nip his root". Hope this helped!
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ReplyDeleteSebastian Navarro
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Wosley's speech conveys the various behaviors and reactions of humans as we are faced with unexpected grueling situations. Wosley's tone shifts multiple times throughout, altering from angry to sadness and despair. Wosley mocks his former associates, saying "So farewell- to the little good you bear me. / Farewell? a long farewell to all my greatness! " (Shakespeare 1-2). Wosley later realizes the severity of his situation and how his arrogance caused his termination to be so severe. For example, Wosley says "Like little wanton boys that swim on bladders, / This many summers in a sea of glory, / But far beyond my depth." (Shakespeare 10-12). Wosley compares the "bladders" with his position, that kept him so high, swimming in his arrogance and power. His power was far beyond his means, just as his depth in his "sea of glory" was "far beyond my depth".
When Wosley alludes to the biblical story of Satan, I found the comparison to be rather contradictory. Wosley asserts " And when he falls, he falls like Lucifer, / Never to hope again" (Shakespeare 22-23). It is "Never to hope again" that is contradictory, for Lucifer does fall greatly from his position at the right hand of God, but he later rises up to power again as the leader of the underworld. The concluding phrases of Wosley's soliloquy suggests that Wosley will once again rise up to power, opposing his former colleagues, just as Satan did to God.
Andrew Garcia
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In response to Justin, Period 2 got an interesting opinion on the "sea of glory". Contrary to what you said, we saw it as that of a a symbolic baptism, to build on the allusion of the Bible, to restate, Jesus' Resurrection and Lucifer. This can be seen by the change of thought from the beginning of it: "His greatness is a-ripening", to "My high-blown pride/ At length broke under me."
To the confusion from line 19-21, as said by a few, I see it as a sign of regret. From line 21: "More pangs and fears than wars or woman have." It shows that all this worry that came from it was not worth it. What he was aspiring to in line 19: "There is, betwixt that smile we would aspire to.." From this we can see that aspiration of pleasure or power since he is between the common people and the the king, and that the smile holds his jealousy, or desire. This also relates to "that sweet aspects of princes, and their ruin." (line 20) Power and pride, two of the biggest downfalls for any monarch. As example, the future Louis XVI anyone?
From "How to read like literature" one has to ask the question, What story does this poem relate to rather than the obvious Biblical and Historical Reference? Short Poems are harder to write than long ones.
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ReplyDeleteJacy Ann Fong
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I agree with Jennisha's final comment, "The final line 'never to hope again' shows the tone of acceptance of his dismissal." As I read through this poem, I took particular notice to this line. I was reminded of the previous timed-write that included the poem "When I Have Fears." The couplet included at the end also contained a negative connotation, but as we further discussed it, it was concluded that Keats was coming to terms with his death. In other words, I related these two poems because Wolsey had also eventually come to terms with his dismissal.
In response to Carly Hintz's question about line 21, "More pangs and fears than wars or women have," I interpreted it as figurative language that provides the depth of his pain comparing to that of suffering and pain. And it's as if the speaker is saying that he knows exactly all there is to know about wars and women when it comes to pain, fears, and suffering. I'm not sure if I answered the question, but that's what I came up with.
Angeleen Lardizabal
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I agree with those of you who mentioned that Wolsey progresses through different reactions in response to his dismissal, and in particular, I concur with Florencia and Ryan's proposal of Wolsey's realization of some sort. The initial shock of the news is reflected in the first two lines where his bitterness is conspicuous—but as he progresses through his soliloquy, he begins think more rationally and identify with his personal blunders. In the beginning he seems reluctant to admit that he may be at fault for his own downfall, but as Dino and many of you suggested, Wolsey comes to terms and openly attributes the blame to himself and his own inflated pride as in line 12. In this way, it's almost as if his reevaluation justifies that his dismissal was not completely unforeseen, although his initial remarks made it seem that way.
Right after he makes the declarative statement, "Vain pomp and glory of this world, I hate ye!" (Line 16), he follows up by implying he has experienced an epiphany of sorts with the line "I feel my heart new open’d" (Line 17). There is an inconsistency in his tone between these two lines alone, just as Florencia again pointed out. Perhaps by experiencing this dismissal, Wolsey finally gains insight of the corrupt and superfluous lifestyle he used to live—by no longer working under their jurisdiction, their practices become despicable in his eyes. It sounds as if he is scorning himself as well for ever associating with their arrogant ways. Just as Ryan suggested, it could partially be attributed to Wolsey’s bias, as, after all, he had just been removed from the court—and so naturally Wolsey would feel entitled to admit his criticisms of royalty.
Similar to Monique’s response in regards to Lines 19-21, I feel that he reflects on the struggles and attempts to gain the favor of the prince—hence the "smile we would aspire to". Such attempts could be not only be draining but distressing as well—and ultimately, such strenuous efforts could go to waste, hence the fall.
Ana Velasco
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As a response to Sebastian Navarro's interpretation of the last lines to the speech, I do see where you might see the contradiction in " And when he falls, he falls like Lucifer"(22), because when Satan fell from being the right hand man of God, he fell and became the most powerful person in the underworld. The only difference was that for me, the "Never to hope again"(23), was that Wolsey can never imagine, dream, or hope of being once again at such a powerful position next to the king, and neither can Lucifer. Lucifer will never hope of being the right hand man to God, because he knows that he will never be back in the kingdom of God especially since he thinks he is more powerful in his own world.
Just to sum up what I thought about the whole speech and what it meant, Wolsey changes his tone throughout the poem from gloating about his greatness and how people will miss it, to modest. He is almost accepting that because he was so arrogant and confident in his greatness that it led to him being discharged form his position.
Also, Wolsey was in a high enough position where he thought he was great. He was basking in his glory only because he could, and he could because of the power he had. For example, "Like little wanton boys that swim on bladders, / This many summers in a sea of glory, / But far beyond my depth." (Shakespeare 10-12). The bladders he refers to the bladders as his chair almost, in powerful position, and the sea of glory would be his power, confidence, and arrogance.
Thats basically what the majority has said and I agree. Oh and did anyone else find that there are multiple shifts in the speech?
Anissa Amezcua
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As a response to Ana Velasco's and Sebastian Navarro's comments about Wolsey being compared to Lucifer, I do see the contradiction but also the comparison of how they both were the right hand men who fell from power. During the socratic seminar in class Eric Hum had mentioned that Lucifer fell from power then became his own person and created his own power although negative. Was Shakespeare trying to point out that Wolsey could become powerful again? The last line "never to hope again" (line 24) also contradicts that thought though.
Another thing I had noticed about the comparison with Lucifer is that it is also comparing Henry VIII to God. It may be compared because at this time there was a divine right and the kings were thought to be given the power to rule by God himself.
Something to notice is line 6 where it states "The third day comes a frost, a killing frost". It refers to the third day meaning the resurrection of Jesus but in the same line refers to death which is a contradiction. In the book "How to Read Literature Like a Professor" it points out to pay close attention to these contradictions. This line can represent a resurrection after the death if that makes sense because the poem points out "killing" frost then the third day which represents resurrection.
I along with the majority of the people responding on here notice line 10 "Like little wanton boys that swim on bladders". When I looked up wanton it meant carefree so the line could be paraphrased as 'like little carefree boys that have a cushion for their falls'. The bladder acts as floaties or a cushion as people have previously pointed out and Wolsey became so comfortable with this 'cushion' that he overstepped his boundary so their was no cushion to catch his fall.
Responding to Ana Velasco question about the shifts in the poem, I as well noticed these shifts. I think the shifts are a change in emotion. In the first 3 lines he is angry as anyone would be if they had been fired. In line 4 his attitude shifts to hopeful because he believe there is still hope at greatness. Starting on line 8, Wolsey starts realizing and admitting to his mistakes.
I noticed that in line 11 the poem speaks of "a sea of glory" and in line 15 "a rude stream" and in line 12-13 the poem says "my high-blown pride at length broke under me". It seams as if his pride acted as a bridge and had broken causing him to drown in his glory. Is the bodies of water in line 11 and 15 the same body of water in different contexts?
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ReplyDeleteSuzanne Khan
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Most of the previous posts have already mentioned this, but I also agree that Wolsey's pride and over confidence put him in the position for his downfall.
In response to Ana Velasco's question about multiple shifts, I found that in the beginning, his tone seems to be angry. Then it eventually seems as if he becomes more relieved. In the first two lines, he makes it seem as if he does not care that he is leaving because the people of the court have done little for him and they will be losing an important part of their group. Starting in line 3, I noticed a shift that continues all the way to line 9, ending with "And then he falls as I do." He is using a metaphor to compare his rise and fall in court to a plant that only lasts 3 days. On the first day, he was soaring in his confidence and high hopes and expectations, the second day he grew and gained the power to become the king's advisor, and on the third day, all his power had slipped from him and it was gone. This goes on to show that his position in power did not last him long. The next shift continues from line 9 until line 17. When he says, "I have ventur'd, Like little wanton boys that swim on bladders, This many summers in a sea of glory, But far beyond my depth..." he shows that he has gone beyond his normal boundaries, and his pride put him in a dangerous situation. By being on a "bladder," he thought he was floating on his high placed cushion and that he could not be harmed. The speech goes on to state that he fell from his pride and he is now actually "drowing in his own glory" according to line 15 where the rude stream is mentioned. Also, Line 16, "Vain pomp and glory of this world, I hate ye!" is referring to how he hates vain and glory and how he is also blaming himself for letting himself into that mess. He actually does change his tone once again in line 17 where he is acknowledging that it is now time for him to express himself and move on. He seems to finally feel free from the constraints he previously had while serving in the court.
The last two lines of the poem made a reference to Lucifer, who was the right hand of God until he got sent to hell. In his case, Wolsey was the right hand of Henry VIII until he lost his power. I thought line 23, "Never to hope again," was actually sort of contradicting because since he was comparing himself to Lucifer, Lucifer actually became the leader of hell, which means that maybe in his future, Wolsey will, once again, have the chance to come to a high power or position once again.
In response to Anissa Amezcua's question pertaining to the two bodies of water. I think they actually are the same body of water in different contexts due to the fact that he had an ocean when he had power while once he lost that power, his ocean turned into a "rude stream" where he drowned in his own glory.
All in all, I believe that Wolsey's downfall actually caused him to go through the realization that made him see all the advisors would eventually have their downfalls somewhere along the line.
Jose De Soto IV
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I agree with the responses from my fellow classmates. I interpretes that the poem was like a rollercoaster of emotions. The tone goes from high positive moments to low depressing ones. As to the biblical refrences they are true to the sense of religion to the speaker. It depends how religious the reader is to understand the authors allusions to the bible. On the previous post by Eric Hum he states that "Finally, line 6 is kind of weird “the third day comes a frost, a killing frost.” (6) If I’m correct, Jesus resurrected on the third day. Hopefully anyone with a better understanding of Christianity can aupport my finding." (Hum). Since Eric Hum has more knowledge about Christianity he was able to spot this allusion quickly. As me a non-religous person was not able to spot that allusion. It makes sense that Shakespear wants to make Wosley into a Christ Like person after being laid off by the King's Court.
In addtion to my statements above found no poetic rhyme scheme in this poem. So it does not follow the Shakesperean sonnet style. Also some of Shakespeare's word choice is weird. For example the word betwixt is not used in todays vocabulary which calls for searching it up on the internet.
And symbolically Wosley symbolyzes Lucifer. The bad angel that falls out of the heavens.
Adrian Navarro
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In response to Anissa's comment about not seing the contadictiom in comparing himself to Lucifer. In line 22-23, Wolsey says "And when he falls, he falls like Lucifer,/Never to hope again." There is a contradictory in comparing himself to Lucifer because even though they both were right hand men to hugs leaders, and they both had a dramatic downfall, Lucifer did rise up again as leader of the underworld. The contradicting line in line 23 when he states "never to hope again," meaning he will never rise again to power.
There is a similar contradictory in line 6, when Wolsey says "The third day comes a frost, a killing frost." I believe this is a contradiction, because when I think of the third day, i think of Jesus's resurection to heaven, to fufill his scripture, and to continue his power to judge the living and the dead until he comes back again. What's contradicrtory is the external force, the frost or king, who brought him down and did not allow Wolsey to fufill or complete his glory like Jesus.
And also in response to Anissa's comment about the two body of waters. I believe the two body of waters are the same. The ocean was when he was at his highest peak, fell of glory. But after his downfall, the ocean became nothing but a rude stream, where he drowned in his concequences and faced the hardships of his downfall.